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Kreisels vs...Coke bottles?

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Kreisels vs...Coke bottles?

« posted: 3 years ago »
In a plane flight today, my mind wandered to seahorses, specifically breeding. Can we use old coke bottles to serve as faux-kreisels? If it works for calanoid copepods, shouldn't it work for seahorse (and other fish) larvae as well? It's a lot cheaper to get a 2L coke bottle than a 2L plastic bowl. It's also much easier to add airline as well. Water still circulates similar to a kreisel, in that it moves from the bottom of the bottle to the top, and keeps the seahorses from heading to the surface...thoughts?
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Re: Kreisels vs...Coke bottles?

« Reply #1 posted: 3 years ago »
I wasn't aware of people still using kreisels for seahorse fry.
I used to use four litre wide mouth glass pickle jars but progressed to using the "muck bucket method" version of Dan's system.
It sure would be a pain to work the seahorse fry in and out of the coke bottle opening.
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Re: Kreisels vs...Coke bottles?

« Reply #2 posted: 3 years ago »
My take is that kreisels are a poor design for rearing fry.  Also the size is way to small.  We find much higher success not using any type of kreisel effect and using larger tanks with really good filtration.  Our fry systems have 90 gallon tubs.  We have used everything from 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 29, 30, 40 and 55 gal glass tanks and 18, 65 & 90 gal tubs for rearing fry.  Our highest success ratios are in the tubs and then highest in the 90 gal ones.

My argument against kreisels is that fry are programed to go near the surface to feed on plankton.  Most folks who use kreisels try to keep the fry from the surface.  The fry will continue to try to get back there and it wastes energy.  I prefer for that energy to used for growth.  In our tubs the fry stay near the surface just floating along feeding.

The reason that folks think a kreisel is needed is because some encounter fry that get stuck on the surface.  This can happen for two reasons.  One that weak fry can get stuck in the surface tension.  Good water and some light agitation can help this and as long as the fry can feed, they will go back into the water column typically within a day or so.  The second reason is that some encounter fry with an air bubble.  Many believe that this is from snicking air.  In reality, if one encounters this, take a look at cleaning up the live foods.  If you clean them up, this issue goes away.  In rearing several species of pelagic fry, it is extremely rare for us to see any with air bubbles even though we freely let them stay near the surface.

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Re: Kreisels vs...Coke bottles?

« Reply #3 posted: 3 years ago »
I like kreisels, but I think I'm in the minority. Dan is spot on about the misconception about why we need to keep fry from the surface. However, the one place kreisels do excel is if you have fry that are weak and floating to the top; sometimes the sweeping motion can keep them down where the food is, and they can recover.

My experience has not been that fry keep trying to go to the top of a kriesel. Most end up in the center, where it is relatively calm, and hunt from there. This does mean a minimum of 2.5 gallon fish bowl or kreisel, and a 4 gallon is better. Anything smaller and it's impossible to get that calm center. Unfortunately finding 2.5 gallon or larger plastic fish bowls is becoming increasingly difficult.

That's not to say other systems don't work! Dan has higher success rates than me. But yes, I still like kreisels and think they have a use.

As for a coke bottle, I'm not sure how that would work. I'd be worried about the volume being too small. I've used them for artificially hatching clownfish eggs, but never for larvae or fry.

Since seahorses have such large broods, you could probably try multiple ways of raising them within a single brood and see what works best for you.
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Re: Kreisels vs...Coke bottles?

« Reply #4 posted: 3 years ago »
Huh. I've been thinking for the past few years that kreisels were necessary for keeping seahorse larvae alive. Go figure.
Dan, do you mind elaborating on cleaning the foods? I don't think I quite understand. Additionally, are there any instances in which you think a kreisel would be best for rearing fish larvae of any species?
Tami, do seahorses start producing large broods at once? Or do they work up to it (like guppies)? Because if the latter, I think that a coke bottle would work pretty well for them, should a kreisel be applicable to the situation.

And....now my brain's moving to copepods. Can they be cultured in kreisels as well?
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Re: Kreisels vs...Coke bottles?

« Reply #5 posted: 3 years ago »
Anytime you have high densities of organisms and high organics, there is opportunity for bacteria to proliferate.  Artemia and Rotifer cultures especially are known for this and there are many studies on this.  Sterilizing vessels, airlines and equipment between use and using clean water can help.  There are also bacterial inhibitors that can be used.  We also sterilized artemia with peroxide post hatch. 

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Re: Kreisels vs...Coke bottles?

« Reply #6 posted: 2 years ago »
I always preferred Kreisels, at least for newborns, for three reasons. First I had very limited space and hanging the 2.5 gallon fish bowls in larger aquariums allowed me to keep more fry. Secondly, even though I live in California my home is in the mountains at 5300 foot elevation so I have winter temps up to six months a year (less heaters to deal with). Lastly I like to be able to view all the fry every time I feed or clean the fish bowls. Once I was satisfied that all the fry were doing well and hitching I would move them to 10 -20 gallon tanks.

I did up to five feeding and water changes a day and sterilized all the bowls and other equipment every five days.

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Re: Kreisels vs...Coke bottles?

« Reply #7 posted: 2 years ago »
Nice to see ya back around the boards again Bruce!

Dan
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Re: Kreisels vs...Coke bottles?

« Reply #8 posted: 2 years ago »
Thanks Dan! I will be looking for horses again soon. It is nice to know you are still in the biz as you were always the best for both healthy horses and customer service.

Bruce

« Last Edit: 2 years ago by Bruce »

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